zz: "OS theology

[Ted Nelson <ted@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Yo Xanni!

>I can't presently see any advantages to developing hardware device
>drivers using the Zigzag structures, and considerable disadvantages.
>Feel free to convince me otherwise with examples.

Hardly.  Let it stand as a religious statement:
"Files (named lumps in fixed places, combining
 various types of data), and hierarchical directories,
 are grotesque and stupid structures whose
 grotesquerie is not recognized because they are
 so familiar.
"Similarly, program and data references based
 on string-scans of the names of such files and
 directories, and on paths among them-- the
 fundamental underlying referential structure of
 all operating systems today-- is a mistake.
"For discrete elements now packed into files,
 as well as discrete references currently made
 to files, directories, inodes, processes and whatnot,
 cellular reference could be better;
"ZZpaths provide a far more general referential
 structure than pathnames.
"The general alternative here is a world where
 plexes of smaller discrete elements, connected through
 ZZpaths, replace 'files' to a large extent, and where
 ZZpaths become a more general referential structure
 to replace OS pathnames."

ChrzT


At 02:07 AM 10/2/98 +1000, you wrote:
>On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 12:52:24AM +0900, Ted Nelson wrote:
>> >That's not an OS; that's a file system (a system for filing things!)
>> 
>> As I stated it, yes.  As I meant it, no.
>> 
>> If we create a system which has no constructs
>>  other than ZZ structures, it is more than a filing
>>  system.  It will be a complete conceptual environment
>>  and hence qualify as an operating system.
>
>Not necessarily.  An operating system and a "complete conceptual
>environment" are not necessarily the same thing.  The conceptual environment
>can be a PART of an operating system - the part that is apparent to the user.
>
>> Obviously we can *simulate* an all-ZZ system with
>>  the present structure, and taking it out to Unix commands,
>>  for a long time.   
>
>That still doesn't make it an operating system; only an operating
>environment, aka "shell", "GUI" or "desktop", which is not the same thing.
>
>> Another way to look at it: if ZZ functions are available
>>  at what is presently called the "file level", so you can
>>  attach things to files via zz connections, and begin to
>>  redesign conventional files in terms of discrete connections
>>  among ZZ structures and (say) OSMIC streams,
>>  now you're creating a comprehensive environment
>>  independent of the fundamental constructs of conventional
>>  operating systems.  This is one of my intents.
>
>Yes indeed.  That would allow new kinds of operating system design.
>But Zigzag would still only be a component of such an operating system.
>
>> >An OS is responsible for directly operating the hardware and providing
>> >a standardised way to access and manipulate computer hardware and system
>> >services, which is not something I expect ZigZag would be well suited for.
>> 
>> Well, maybe we'll just see, won't we !-)
>
>I can't presently see any advantages to developing hardware device
>drivers using the Zigzag structures, and considerable disadvantages.
>Feel free to convince me otherwise with examples.
>
>Cheers,
>	*** Xanni ***
>-- 
>mailto:xanni@xxxxxxxxxx                         Andrew Pam
>http://www.xanadu.com.au/                       Technical VP, Xanadu
>http://www.glasswings.com.au/                   Technical Editor, Glass Wings
>http://www.sericyb.com.au/sc/                   Manager, Serious Cybernetics
>P.O. Box 26, East Melbourne VIC 8002 Australia  Phone +61 3 96511511
>
>
____________________________________________________
Theodor Holm Nelson, Visiting Professor of Environmental Information
 Keio University, Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Fujisawa, Japan
 Home Fax from USA: 011-81-466-46-7368  (If in Japan, 0466-46-7368)
Professorial home page http://www.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~ted/ 
_____________________________________________________
Permanent: Project Xanadu, 3020 Bridgeway #295, Sausalito CA 94965
 Tel. 415/ 331-4422, fax 415/332-0136  
http://www.xanadu.net
PERMANENT E-MAIL: ted@xxxxxxxxxx
_____________________________________________________
Quotation of the day, 98.10.01:
"There are no problems, only solutions."  Vortner Squattoon